What Is Your Opinion (Based on Scripture)
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I hope this blog doesn’t cause strife among the saints, but rather shed light to those who may be confused with the whole idea on “Predestination”, “Free Will” & “Election”.
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Arminian -vs- Hyper Calvinist –vs- Calvinist
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Arminian: (Free Will); The belief that man has “free will” to choose to come to Christ. One can lose their salvation.
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Hyper Calvinist: (Predestination / Election); God has already predestine some to serve Him and some to reject Him. One has eternal security in salvation.
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Calvinist: (Predestination / Election); God has given a chosen few the ability to choose Him. One has eternal security in salvation.
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I’ll begin by stating personally I do not hold completely to any one of the three theories above. According to the scriptures I believe that God draws man to His Son (John 6:44), however man must first have a contrite heart (Psalm 34:18). I believe that God draw some people to His Son because they seek after the truth (Mat 7:8) (2 Thes 2:10, 11).
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Remember the following scripture before getting involved.
(2 Tim 2:24-25)
24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but he is to be gentle to all, ready in teaching, putting up with wrong, 25 Gently guiding those who go against the teaching; if by chance God may give them a change of heart and true knowledge, (Basic English Bible).
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22 Responses to What Is Your Opinion (Based on Scripture)
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September 5th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I don’t hold to any of these views either. And each one of these views back it up with their “interpertation” of scripture. I’m kind of tired of this conversation on blogs.
So, I will just stick to the word, a few scriptures that come to mind John 3:15-21, John 8:12, John 10:9, John 14:6, Rom 10:4-13, Heb 3:7-11,1 John 3:24, 1 John 5:11-13, Rev 3:20
1 John 3:24…(that’s enough for now)…bottom line, whether by “election” or “free will”…
Rev 22:11, He that is unjust, let him be unjust still and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
I have more to say, but I’ll just leave it at this for now..
September 6th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Hey sister Amey, I didn’t think many people would have been bold enough to go against the conventional teachings publicly and say what you said. I commend you for your bold stance. I will check out the scriptures you provided and I will get back with you. God bless.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I will just say this because some people misunderstand the view of Calvinism (of which if you want to place me in to better suit your view that’s fine)and want to make broad sweeping statements that they themselves don’t really understand. First, Calvin didn’t start this view, Christ did (Jn. 6:37,44)! Second, if the life, death, and resurrection of Christ was according to the PREDETERMINED PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD (Acts 2:22-24), does not the Potter have the right to make from the SAME lump one for honorable use and another for common use (Rom. 9:21)? God has the right to dispose or to do whatever He wants with HIS creation. Who are we to judge His ways?
September 9th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I agree in part with you Pastor Woods. The Potter (God) has the right to do whatever pleases Him. To whom does He have to give an answer? However in (Jn. 6:37), the Greek word for “giveth” is (didomi) (Strong 1325) which is implied at times either literally or figuratively. This has been a debated topic from the 1st century to the present time. This I believe is a mystery that the Lord has not fully revealed because the heart of man is wicked. Remember how the Pharisees also held to the PREDETERMINED PLAN of God. They said within themselves that they had received salvation because of their father Abraham (Mat. 3:9). Jesus reminded them that He could raise up anyone to be children of Abraham that He so please. Yes, God draws, and yes God has Foreknowledge of all who will accept His Son. But how arrogant were the Pharisees and others who think that God has saved them and they are not required to bring forth fruits of repentance as the bible commands us to do (Mat. 3:8).
September 9th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Exactly Pastor Woods, who are we to judge God’s ways. Whether someone comes by “free will” or “election”, I just thank the Lord and rejoice that a person does come to the saving knowledge of the truth in Christ Jesus. When I’m sharing the gospel with a person, in the back of my mind, I’m not wondering whether “is this a person that God predestined to be saved, or are they going to realize they are wretched and need a savior and confess and repent of their sins and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and live a life that brings forth fruit pleasing unto God of their own will?” No I’m not, I’m just going to speak as the Holy Spirit leads me. I may be planting or watering, but I’ll leave the increase up to God.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
And again, the issue is not about what God does. The problem is when we as human beings try to give credit to our salvation by stating that we have the “free-will” to decide whether or not God will save us. This is the issue that concerns me the most. That God’s will (which is absolutely sovereign in Scripture)hinges on man’s will (which is totally depraved and hostile toward God). Bottom line is this: MAN IS DEAD IN SIN AND INCAPABLE OF COMING TO CHRIST IN SAVING FAITH & SALVATION UNTIL OR UNLESS THE SPIRIT OF GOD MAKES HIM ALIVE TO RESPOND TO THE SAVING MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL-PERIOD! I agree with you sister Pat. I don’t wonder who the elect are when I share the gospel with the lost. That’s not my job nor my responsibility.
With regards to Bro. Davidson’s statement in Jn. 6:37, the issue shouldn’t be with the word “giveth”, but on the ONE who gives to the Son. It’s the Father that gives to the Son. Then emphasis has absolutely nothing to do with giving, but with God who selects and chooses those who He desires the Son to have.
Lastly, unless there is evident reason to conclude based on the grammar or construction of the original language to conclude that what John writes is figurative in the passage and not literal, we should always interpret a passage as literal or in the plainest sense that the author gives to the reader unless the rules of interpretation deem otherwise.
Jn. 6:37 is not a mystery that can’t be understood. All that is needed is for us to accept what God says is true and every man to be a liar (Rom. 3:4).
September 11th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Watch your email tone Mr. Woods, or else I will have to moderate your comments and monitor your “testosterone” levels…ROFL!!!!!
LOL…LOL!
September 11th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Sorry!
September 12th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Righter hopes Pastor S is out of harm’s way
September 12th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Saiko will let you know once he dries off (lol)!
September 12th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Righter says her blow dryer is in the mail–:-)
September 13th, 2008 at 12:26 am
A few questions for Pastor Saiko Woods: Who are the Elected of God? Is it Israel? Would you agree that when the Apostle Paul wrote his epistles, he was writing to the “Church”? Is not the “Church” also the “elect”? Who was James speaking to when he said, “receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls” (Jam 1:21)? Why would the “elect” have to receive the engrafted word with meekness in order to be saved, if they are already “elected”?
If man did not have to do anything at all to be saved, why would Peter instruct believers to “make your calling and election sure” in (2 Pet 1:10)? How could God desire all men to be saved according to (1 Tim 2:3, 4) if “He” didn’t give man a chance to repent?
Is salvation based on one’s acceptance of Jesus Christ or through the election plan of God? And don’t say both, because if the election is as simply as some might suggest, then a person doesn’t have to do anything because God has already done the work for them. In conclusion, it is no doubt that God does the drawing, but could it be that He is drawing those who are seeking the truth (2 Thes 2:10, 11)? (Rom 9:25, 26) states that God will call them who were not His people to be His people. In light of (Rom 9:25, 26), then who could question God if He decided to save someone who’s heart the “Word” has pricked?
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counselor (Rom 11:34)? Who can question Him? Who really knows this answer but God?
September 13th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Deacon Tim, did you see the post on this whole endless debate over on Melvins Blog…it was a good analogy BUT for ME, it still doesn’t fully make me come to the conclusion that man’s will doesn’t play ANY part in his salvation. There’s just too much in scripture that says otherwise. I believe that no one has a corner on the market when it comes to this subject…except God Himself…thus, this debate will go on and on until Jesus returns.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I responded to the question about “The Elected of God” on brother Melvin Jones site. And here is what brother Melvin had to say:
Tim: Who are the Elected of God? Is it Israel? Would you agree that when the Apostle Paul wrote his epistles, he was writing to the “Church”? Is not the “Church” also the “elect”? Who was James speaking to when he said, “receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls” (Jam 1:21)? Why would the “elect” have to receive the engrafted word with meekness in order to be saved, if they are already “elected”?
Melvin: (Again, you have it backwards. It is the elect, those who are chosen from before the foundation of the world who, once they receive Christ as savior will be more than willing to receive the word. Just as it is the elect who have been crucified with Christ. It is the elect who have been raised with Christ. You keep speaking as if one day a person becomes one of the elect. It’s the opposite. The elect were identified before the foundation of the world. For example, I was chosen from before the foundation of the world. God sovereignly opened my heart to receive the Gospel in 1973 (or so). I became a Christian then. But I was of the elect from before the foundation of the world.)
Tim’s Responds: It sounds like Melvin is saying that “The Elect” are the chosen of God before the foundation of the world But, they still have to receive the gospel and become a Christian. In other words it sounds like Melvin is saying that man has to validate if you will, God’s plan. It sounds like this is what I have been saying all along, that a man has to respond to the calling of God.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I responded to the question about “The Elected of God” on brother Melvin Jones site. And here is what brother Melvin had to say:
Tim: If man did not have to do anything at all to be saved, why did Peter instruct believers to “make your calling and election sure” in (2 Pet 1:10)?
Melvin: (Because he wasn’t talking about getting saved. Nor is he talking about staying saved. It is similar to James telling the people that their faith should make a difference in the way they live their lives. Unless of course you are saying I have to do works to get saved and works to stay saved. But I’m sure you’re not saying that. Are you? This is where reading the epistles for the purpose they were written comes in. It’s also where context and the rest of Scripture has to be used to interpret.)
Tim’s Responds: It sounds like Melvin is reading a different scripture because this particular scripture is saying just what Melvin is saying that it is not saying “make your calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10).
September 19th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I responded to the question about “The Elected of God” on brother Melvin Jones site. And here is what brother Melvin had to say:
Tim: How could God desire all men to be saved according to (1 Tim 2:3, 4) if “He” didn’t give man a chance to repent?
Melvin: (God doesn’t desire every single individual on earth to be saved. If He did, why didn’t he just choose every single person who would ever exist on earth that they should be holy and blameless before Him? (Eph 1:3 - 4))
Tim’s Responds: This was probably the worst answer brother Melvin gave. He said that God doesn’t desire every single individual on earth to be saved. But that is what Melvin thinks because the bible says:
God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1Tim 2:3, 4).
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel (Ezekiel 33:11)?
The Lord also said that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41):
September 19th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
I responded to the question about “The Elected of God” on brother Melvin Jones site. And here is what brother Melvin had to say:
Tim: Is salvation based on one’s acceptance of Jesus Christ or through the election plan of God? And don’t say both, because if the election is as simple as some might suggest, then a person doesn’t have to do anything because God has already done the work for them.
Melvin: (It’s not an “either/or”. Only those who are of the elect, only those who were chosen from before the foundation of the world are going to accept Jesus Christ.) (That is correct. God has done the work for them. That is why my salvation is to the praise and glory of the Father and has nothing to do with me.)
Tim’s Responds: I guest Melvin is trying to have it both ways. He is saying that a person must accept Jesus Christ, but God has done the work for them. Huh?
I could only imagine what brother Melvin would tell his children or grandchildren if they were to ask him, “what must I do to be saved?”
1. You can’t do anything.
2. You have to be chosen of the Father.
3. It’s not up to you. God has chosen to save some and chosen to send some to hell.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I responded to the question about “The Elected of God” on brother Melvin Jones site. And here is what brother Melvin had to say:
Tim: In conclusion, it is no doubt that God does the drawing, but could it be that He is drawing those who are seeking the truth (2 Thes 2:10, 11)? (Rom 9:25, 26) states that God will call them who were not His people to be His people.
Melvin: (The unsaved don’t seek the truth. (Romans 1:18; Romans 3:10 - 18 which says that
1. There is none righteous
2. There is none who understands
3. There is none who seeks God
4. All have turned aside
5. There is none who does good
6. There is no fear of God before their eyes.
If these things are true, who among the UNSAVED is going to seek the truth? By the way, I’m not sure what 2 Thess 2:10 - 11 have to do with seeking the truth. It says God sends a deluding influence to have them believe what is false. Nor do I see what Romans 9:25, 26 has to do with the discussion.)
Tim’s Responds: This is a person example of doing what Melvin said we should not do; take scriptures out of context. He says the unsaved don’t seek the truth. Were we all unsaved at one point? And didn’t we have to seek the truth before we came to the knowledge of the truth? He also took the following scriptures out of context:
1. There is none righteous (Tim: (James 5:16) Says; “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much”.)
2. There is none who understands (Tim: (Daniel 12:10) Says; “Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.” And (Hebrews 11:3) Says that we understand through faith.)
3. There is none who seeks God (Tim: (Hebrews 11:6) Says; “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him”.)
4. All have turned aside (Tim: True, but this is why we must repent.)
5. There is none who does good (Tim: The bible commands us to let our light so shine before men, that they may see our good works, and glorify our Father which is in heaven (Matthew 5:16).
September 19th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
I responded to the question about “The Elected of God” on brother Melvin Jones site. And here is what brother Melvin had to say:
Tim: In light of (Rom 9:25, 26), then who could question God if He decided to save someone who’s heart the “Word” has pricked? For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor (Rom 11:34)? Who can question Him?
Melvin: (Who pricks the heart?)
Tim’s Responds: (As I already stated, it is no doubt that God does the drawing, but could it be that He is drawing those who are seeking the truth (2 Thes 2:10, 11)?
Melvin: (And what does the last quote have to do with the discussion? )
Tim’s Responds: (We as Christians need to take God out of the box of our “Finite” thinking!). Because who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counselor? There is no searching His understanding (Isaiah 40:28).
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12).
September 21st, 2008 at 9:10 am
Tim,
It might have been better if you had let me know you were responding to my response to your questions over here. I’m off to church right now, but I’ll be back this afternoon.
Later.
Melvin
September 21st, 2008 at 5:02 pm
I figured this was the only way that I could get a word in edgewise (lol).
October 22nd, 2008 at 12:08 am
One of the main issues regarding this debate or more aptly put discussion is the understanding of Sovereignty.
Indeed, if GOD is Sovereign and he is, we must understand the magnitude of that Sovereignty. Looking at the Original Oracles of GOD (Old testament) we would be hard pressed to say for sure we knew how Christ would come and then have to come back again,likewise I think we may be possibly limiting the Sovereignty of GOD to our understanding.
Please all readers review the Interplay between GOD and man in Genesis 20:6-7
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now then, return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
Interesting exchange wouldn’t you say.
Last statement……………… At what point in the exchange was GOD not Sovereign???
In his Name!